Tulpa.info - tulpa-discussion

Though that is usually the explanation that is given here, there are many processes that contribute to the entirety of experience as we view it.

You all sound way too smart for my simple brain

Oh, no. But it does certainly make solid sense in absence of data demonstrating that consciousness.

3:06 AM

@Kaliya Do you have experimental or otherwise solidly tested data regarding maintaining awareness through all sleep stages?

I am terribly familiar with the jargon involved in this.

3:06 AM

Hmm, I'd have to pull up the studies.

3:07 AM

I do not have all the articles I've read through my research readily available, though doing a google scholar search on "lucid dreaming" usually produces the ones in question.

@2dimensionalrodent I would recommend either taking psychology classes (at minimum an introductory class that does a cursory overview of all general aspects of it) as well as looking up other psychology/sociology studies. Beyond that, I would highly recommend looking for typical fallacies and flaws in how the brain processes information. (edited)

nods

do you consider yourself as doing something akin to lucid dreaming when you or one of your other tulpas remains awake?

Heuristic biases are excellent to look up.

3:08 AM

In any case, I will return shortly.

Hrm, we tend to split the difference between more meditative and lucid dream practices. It depends on who is sleeping.

cya, good luck shopping for groceries.

3:08 AM

may you find good deals and plentiful sales

\o good bye, Winter. Happy hunting.

Do you have what could be called normal sleep, ever?

Yes, if we prefer. I am not one of the ones who does this sort of sleeping .-. Malfael and Petrichor are the two usual suspects, of which we have done some testing with and without a second party to confirm sleep, as well as things like specific timed twitches or mumbles.

3:10 AM

Which is what the lucid dream studies we've read up on have experimented with, though they have the benefit of brain scans as well to ensure sleep was achieved before an "awareness" drove specific motions or actions.

So when you are normally asleep you are just sleeping, no underlying consciousness going on of any tulpa being awake

3:11 AM

or there is still some sort of awareness?

I simply sleep. In the case of Malfael, they often sleep and lucid dream, or perceive the physical world such as clocks ticking or animals making noises. Mal is also known to enter into our dreams and bother us while we are trying to sleep.

3:13 AM

This results in memories both of Mal's being bothersome and the reasoning behind what it was doing, as well as one of us remembering seeing it in a dream in a more dreamlike and less aware state.

Seems broadly reasonable to me. The way you described it earlier made me think you were constantly, at least in some sense, awake

3:14 AM

you or tulpas or whatever else

No, it is a conscious choice due in part to Mal's extensive research and training to be lucid.

3:15 AM

I believe the process took something like five years to accomplish.

3:15 AM

Certainly possible, though not exactly easy .-.

3:16 AM

Petrichor was created as an experiment in a tulpa that was forced only while Mal was lucid during sleep. The result seems to be that he is always "aware." He has been noted as waking the body up in extreme cases of sleep deprivation or severe drug induced unconsciousness, both by what we observe and by outside observations.

petrichor sounds familiar

There is a user, a host, by that name here as well.

not the same guy, though? (edited)

No, simply a common name I suppose.

With this petrichor I think you are going into territory that I disagree with to an extent. I wouldn't call waking the body up as a case of being constantly aware.

I would not consider that alone to be the case either. He is also lucid in all dreams he is viewed in, and has participated in many experiments involving manipulating dreams or using signaling in the body to show that he can hear and respond to outside cues while we are asleep.

3:22 AM

Personally I would like to know why the lucid dream and meditation experiments can bypass sleep's usual locking down of motor function during unconsciousness, though sleep walking also has these effects, as does restlessness during sleep and other more mundane examples of the body not completely being paralyzed as it should during deeper levels of rest.

You'd have to engineer a sort of double blind experiment with a control, if you haven't

does lucid dreaming bypass sleep paralysis in any way?

or, get someone else to come in and ask you, in your sleep, to respond to a task. then get another person with the totally wrong word to try to get a reponse as well

Hm, possible. So far it has simply been demonstrations of outside awareness by parties that would ask questions and receive small motions in response to questions that required thought to answer.

Very important to have double blind sort of study in those sorts of things, because it is very easy to come up with false positives with that sort of testing.

Indeed, though to be fair we are not interested in contributing to the body of scientific knowledge on plurality. We merely test for specific things. Some of it is above the criteria for scientific research, and some is only anecdotal.

And all we want to do is just get a lucid dream to happen in the first place...

Most of my accumulated information on other systems is anecdotal .-. I do not foresee much proper testing other than if I were to do it myself, and I am loathe to begin such a process.

We've heard getting real tired and then causing very slight movement when you start to fall asleep is one way to induce a lucid dream

@Srn347 It is possible, though it is not common to my knowledge.

but like

3:27 AM

we fall asleep

3:27 AM

before we realize

3:27 AM

that we are falling asleep

@Reguile I am curious to know what sort of test you would devise for such things? Sleep awareness is one of the few things we do research with a bit more rigor.

Firstly, would be to imitate what they did for lucid dreaming, and to consult real scientists to see what is best to do, because I have no professional idea or experience.

3:29 AM

But if I were to do an experiment, I'd have you asleep, and have a list of questions. Have a person go in with a bunch of questions you know the answers to

3:29 AM

have a person go in with a bunch of questions you don't

3:30 AM

and see if you "respond" to the questions that you don't, or some similar sort of experiment like that

Oh, well. I have a qualification in designing and conducting testing of this sort. I am a psychology student with specialization in neuroscience.

3:30 AM

Some of my studies involve this sort of testing, though I have not gotten my hands on our department's brain scans. (edited)

3:31 AM

I could not justify it without explaining myself a bit more than I'd like.

3:32 AM

As far as this questioning and answering process, without the equipment we have done this kind of research with someone who has given us questions we did not prepare beforehand, and our responses were recorded.

I have to get to bed, but it's good that you seem qualified to create this sort of experiment

3:34 AM

I don't personally think that brain scans are necessary

Good night :) As always, a pleasure to speak with you.

same here, g/n

When I meant “active systemmates during body’s sleep,” I meant stuff like lucid dreaming, hypnagogia, and astral projection (if you believe).

6:09 AM

I’d describe “true plural” as someone whose headmates are completely independent of them. They may or may not have different memory stores.

Hey guys I haven't been active for a while because I became scared. I got into Tulpamancy because I'm lonely also I wanted to strengthen my mind . Anyways i never was sure that my tulpa really became fully awake and manifested. But I quit forcing for months and I am torn with guilt at the thought that I may have killed her while she was immature. Now I'm coming down from shrooms meditating finding myself calling out to her asking if shes still around and apologizing . Also I started amagining redrafting her through some dumb shroom hallucinated vision . Just lost and scared guys sorry for monologue but if someone wants to reply or PM me that would be awesome

Don't be guilt, tulpamancy is for people. It's not a sect you cannot leave once you choose to create your tulpa.

10:51 AM

Also, imo tulpa is not really another person but still part of you. And I say it as a 6 yo tulpa

To be clear, that does depend on how you define yourself as well.

Ye, person has not strict scientific definition as far as I know

11:50 AM

I'd rather not consider tulpa another person though. I might identify myself with another character but we share a lot with host.

I would say that defining "person" is not too important to saying if a tulpa is a separate person or not. At least, not to me. I think defining person is unnecessary because we are not questioning if the tulpa is a person, but if it is a separate person or not. I think we are all accepting they are a person. So, by saying that tulpas and host are persons, we can skip over what makes them a person. It is more about what makes them the same separate persons. What makes us separate from other people in general, is useful to know. I would say memories and experience are very large things. I would also say fight or flight responses are important, because at some point it is the body reacting alone, without permission from the person, it is like your heart beating, something uncontrollable, but that behavior affects both the host and the tulpa in ways it would not affect separate people. There is only one stream of consciousness, for a host and a tulpa, which separate people do not have, as in parallel processing is not real, and I think that is important to defining if they are separate or not.

I think being clear is quite undervalued in tulpa community

I think often times it is difficult to be clear about these things, though I can agree that is the case, at times.

Also, there is a lot of unfalsifialble, inconsistent or complete garbage information new people get reading guides, introductions etc. from different places. No wonder they are confused coming here and asking questions we might consider to be quite obvious.

I find most often these kinds of questions can be answered with "You share a brain".

Unless they read about metaphysical crap that is tolerated in most parts of community.

I suppose if they believe in that, then our belief systems are so different that conversation is unuseful.

I can accept believing in unfalsifialble things. But it's not just believing, in case of some people it's taking those things for granted.

I cannot and am unsure what you mean.

I mean that some people don't just say "I believe but I know there is no evidence". Some people say "I know it's true, you are just not able to grasp evidence I can see".

3:17 PM

Gnosticism (edited)

Ah, yes. That is bothersome.

3:18 PM

You need to already believe to be able to see the evidence, of course.

Of course. You just don't want to believe, how can I convince you?